Barack vs. the Bill of Rights

Back in the 1988 campaign George Bush senior derided Michael Dukakis as a "card-carrying member of the A.C.L.U." It was part of the Republican campaign to demonize all things liberal as far left, out of the mainstream and vaguely Communist. It was always a perverse charge, the ACLU defines a uniquely American form of liberalism rooted in the Bill of Rights. Liberals, and the ACLU, favor an expansive interpretation of the Bill of Rights tilted toward the individual, conservatives favor a narrow interpretation that expands the power of government. Supreme Court cases often most clearly illuminate these competing interpretations.

On the eve of our Independence day celebrations it may be worthwhile to reflect on the meaning of liberty, the Bill of Rights that protects it, and how our nominee sees both. One way to understand Barack Obama's point of view on liberty is to compare his positions on civil liberties issues to the ACLU's. The beginning of the general election and a series of Supreme Court decisions have given us an opportunity to do so. Four of the ten amendments of the Bill of Rights have been in the news recently, and Barack Obama has weighed in on each. In each case Barack Obama has opposed the interpretation of the ACLU.

First Amendment, the Establishment clause, the separation of Church and State. In his speech in Zanesville Ohio last Tuesday Obama announced an expansion of George Bush's Faith Based Initiative. There is some confusion about one critical point, Obama's program will prohibit recipients from discriminating in who they provide government funded service to or who they pay using government funds, but the funds will still go directly to organizations which discriminate in their non-government funded hiring. The ACLU's position is clear:

The government already can and does work collaboratively with faith-based organizations.  It has long granted tax dollars to religious social service providers that agree not to discriminate in hiring or providing services, and that operate their social services in a secular manner.  These types of religiously affiliated charities do not deny people employment based on faith, nor do they mix religious activity in with their government-funded services.
The problem with Obama's version of the Faith Based Initiative is that the money goes directly to the religious organization, which may discriminate, rather than to an affiliated but secular charity, which may not. Money is fungible.

Second Amendment, the right to Bear Arms. The DC v. Heller case(pdf) overturned a DC law regulating handguns and established a new, individual, right to bear arms. The ACLU has always considered the Second Amendment a collective right and objected to the court's decision:

The ACLU interprets the Second Amendment as a collective right. Therefore, we disagree with the Supreme Court's decision in D.C. v. Heller. While the decision is a significant and historic reinterpretation of the right to keep and bear arms, the decision leaves many important questions unanswered that will have to be resolved in future litigation, including what regulations are permissible, and which weapons are embraced by the Second Amendment right that the Court has now recognized.
Obama, who defended the DC law during the primaries, supported Scalia's opinion:
Today's decision reinforces that if we act responsibly, we can both protect the constitutional right to bear arms and keep our communities and our children safe.

Fourth Amendment, no Search & Seizure without a warrant. The ACLU has resolutely opposed the NSA warrantless wiretapping program and won a number of cases arguing that the program is unconstitutional on Fourth Amendment grounds. They have opposed the FISA Amendments Act of 2008 saying

The FISA Amendments Act of 2008 is an unconstitutional bill that would significantly modify the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. It grants sweeping new monitoring powers to the government with little court oversight, and ensures the dismissal of all pending cases against telecommunication companies.
Obama, after pledging in the primary to fillibuster any bill that included amnesty, reversed course and opposed the ACLU's position:
Given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay. So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as president, I will carefully monitor the program,

Eighth Amendment, Cruel and unusual punishment. In the recent Kennedy v. Louisiana case (pdf) the Supreme Court took the ACLU's (and the NAACP's) position that

The Eighth Amendment bars Louisiana from imposing the death penalty for the rape of a child where the crime did not result, and was not intended to result, in the victim's death.
Obama, in a shift from his stand in the "Audacity of Hope" that death penalty may be justified in heinous crimes like "mass murder, the rape and murder of a child", disagreed with the court, the NAACP and the ACLU and argued that the death penalty should be expanded beyond crimes that cause a death:
"I have said repeatedly that I think that the death penalty should be applied in very narrow circumstances for the most egregious of crimes," Obama said at a news conference. "I think that the rape of a small child, 6 or 8 years old, is a heinous crime and if a state makes a decision that under narrow, limited, well-defined circumstances the death penalty is at least potentially applicable, that that does not violate our Constitution."

In the primaries Obama showed some discomfort with the Seventh Amendment, preserving civil trial by jury, when he bragged to Fox News that he supported "tort reform":

I would point out, though, for example, that when I voted for a tort reform measure that was fiercely opposed by the trial lawyers, I got attacked pretty hard from the left.
This is not a new position for Obama, when campaigning for the Senate he was quoted saying: "Anyone who denies there's a crisis with medical malpractice is probably a trial lawyer."

It will be interesting to see his interpretations of the Fifth and Sixth Amendments, governing the rights of the accused. The Guantanamo cases, which are a hot topic right now, may illuminate his position on these Amendments. In the past Obama has been a staunch defender of the rights of the accused, even when they are in Guantanamo. He has maintained that position during the primary. The Third Amendment, no quartering of troops, is irrelevant, and interpretations of the Ninth and Tenth Amendments really hinge on whose ox is being gored with regard to the other amendments.

I'm a card carrying liberal. I'm aligned with the ACLU, and against the Scalia/Alito court, on these issues. Obama is not a liberal, he has endorsed the Scalia/Alito interpretation of the Bill of Rights in these cases. Barack Obama lectured on Constitutional law at the University of Chicago, he is well aware of the opposing interpretations of the Bill of Rights going back before they were ratified. He is ignorant of neither the history nor the stakes in how the Bill of Rights is interpreted. He has consciously chosen the conservative interpretation in these cases.

Much of online opinion is more libertarian than liberal. Libertarians are more concerned with concentrations of government power specifically than with concentrations of power generally. So the separation of Church and State, preserving the ability of local jurisdictions to regulate weapons and punishment by death are not big concerns to them, while warrantless wiretapping is a major concern.

Troll prophylactic: Barack Obama is a Democrat, and the Democratic nominee. On these and many other issues he is miles better than John McCain. My point here is that he is not a liberal. As a liberal I am interested in protecting and expanding liberty through the bill of rights, and I oppose Barack Obama's efforts when he argues for restricting those rights.



Display:


Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

Wow, this really lays it out, doesn't it?

There are other links that can be made.  Off the cuff, his FISA stance also impinges on the First Amendment, since freedom of political speech and freedom of association to change the existing government to meet the will of the people is at that amendment's core.  FISA strikes at political protest, pure and simple.


by strongerthandirt on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:15:52 AM EST

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

Its hypocrisy to state that the interpretation of the constitution, in DC vs. Heller - is something that goes against the fabric of the bill of rights.

Far from it. The bill of rights was designed to empower individuals, and prevent tyranny. Think for a second how absurd the DC law was - a person could own a gun, and keep it in their home, but they had to keep the gun disassembled, unloaded.

Even if they were an expert in gun re-assembly, the rationale for keeping a firearm for personaly safety - is impinged. DC. vs. Heller is a landmark for the creation of a new, individual right and that doesn't go against the bill of rights. It actually goes +with+ the bill of rights.

Remember, the founding fathers knew that governments could abuse their power - and wanted to have the people be able to defend themselves not only against other forces, but also their own government - the government has implicit knowledge that if they seek to impose martial law upon their own people, they will be met with a militia. This right goes farther than you think.


by Trey Rentz on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 01:35:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hmm I wonder (none / 0)

Faith based Initiatives have been around for a while, even before Bush.  Yet the aclu hasn't challenged them, fancy that.  There is a reason why the majoirty of teh country would see "card carrying member of the aclu" as an insult. They are a good organization, that doesn't mean they are always right.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:17:38 AM EST

Many challenges to faith-based initiatives (2.00 / 2)

Sorry, sir or madam, but you are incorrect.  And the problem is that the taxpayer's ability to do anything about them is being cut back by the courts.

Here's a citation:

http://www.religionandsocialpolicy.org/i nterviews/interview.cfm?id=172&pageM ode=featured

The law professors there are experts in faith-based initiative litigation.

There has been a significant amount of litigation about faith-based social services since 2001 - much more than there has been in the prior 100 years before that. We didn't see litigation - or we saw very little - about social services; the action was always about schools, and typically elementary and secondary schools, not colleges, before the last ten years or so. Since the Faith-Based and Community Initiative, this is a legal and political flash point for controversy, and there has been a great deal of litigation challenging these programs the government has run involving religious providers.

If Barack wants to direct an agency to, e.g., hand out money to Trinity or Farrakhan, it may be difficult to stop, if the agency has the funds in hand.  Executive actions represent a significant roadblock to taxpayer suits because of the standing issue (sorry for the lawyer talk).

These professors say:

But there have been special rules for about 40 years that say when you are complaining that your tax money is being unlawfully spent in support of religion, the courts will listen to those complaints.

The Hein case cut that back in a significant way. It did not eliminate the doctrine of taxpayer standing in Establishment Clause cases, but it cut it back to cases in which the plaintiff can show that a legislature - not a government executive, like the President, a governor, or executive branch agency, but a legislature like Congress or a state legislature - had in some way specifically authorized the expenditure of money in the direction of religious organizations or activities.* In the last twelve months, in the wake of Hein, lower courts have actually been rather aggressive in jumping on the Hein decision and really insisting on some very careful showing of specific legislative authorization for expenditures in order to support taxpayer lawsuits. A number of cases have been dropped or thrown out by the courts, because taxpayers couldn't show that specific legislative authorization. The result is there are going to be fewer decisions about these kinds of programs, and eventually fewer lawsuits about these kinds of programs because the courts won't hear them - taxpayers won't be able to bring them and the courts will throw them out. This is going to change the dynamic of funding these kinds of enterprises and the litigation that follows from it.

So if you're comfortable with Chicago churches getting tons of money by order of BHO, by all means vote for him.


by strongerthandirt on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:42:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Many challenges to faith-based initiatives (2.00 / 1)

First rule of a true Dead ender-facts be damned

You still cited not one case that has anything to do with the proposed initiatives.

and this line

"So if you're comfortable with Chicago churches getting tons of money by order of BHO, by all means vote for him."  shows exactly who you are.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:28:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Many challenges to faith-based initiatives (2.00 / 2)

"part of the Republican campaign to demonize all things liberal as far left, out of the mainstream and vaguely Communist."

That's because our far left, out of the mainstream and vaguely communist allies in the party are unfortunately also our loudest and most active.

Sometimes I envy the right wingers, they seem to keep a pretty good lid on their nuts.


I'm for a timeline on Iraq, public funding of elections, women's reproductive rights, gun restrictions and universal suffrage. So why should I vote for Obama?
by William Cooper on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 12:34:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Many challenges to faith-based initiatives (none / 0)

Wow.  Really?  So the people I think of as Right Wing Nutjobs aren't the real nutjobs?  Impressive.  They're hiding the real freaks.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 12:35:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Many challenges to faith-based initiatives (2.00 / 2)

Exactly.  Although you were being sarcarstic, the answer is yes.

They don't give their unhinged loons (the DDukes, etc.) a platform from which to shout their insanities.

But we allow ours to infiltrate up to some pretty high levels.  We even often hail them as visionary
and even hold them up as the ideal.  It's not surprising that it's so easy for the conservatives to paint us in this manner.

We need to reign in our most extreme elements, imo.  

BTW, I know what you're probably thinking.  What about Hannity?  Rush?  Coulter?

None of them are as radically extreme as the tru far right is.  I grew up in the south, those three are tame fuzzy little bunnies in comparison.  


I'm for a timeline on Iraq, public funding of elections, women's reproductive rights, gun restrictions and universal suffrage. So why should I vote for Obama?
by William Cooper on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 12:48:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Many challenges to faith-based initiatives (none / 0)

I was actually thinking of Savage, not Rush.  Rush is a calculating businessman and shrewd as hell (and about the biggest, most worthless tool on the planet).


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 01:12:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Talk show hosts are irrelevant (2.00 / 1)

Talk show hosts are just  people who couldn't make it in the entertainment business.
Irrelevant.

Here's the thing. Regardless of the composition of any party, Obama's positions are far from antipodal to the bill of rights, as it stands.

He won't institutionalize faith based initiatives to fund churches. But by that same token, he'll
support the 2nd and 4th amendments. His FISA position is being revised as we stand. But bear in mind that the current FISA bill empowers the presidency, and he's being seduced by that possibility - everyone knows Bush is a lame duck right now.  So like any other president, he needs watchdogs. FISA is the biggest thing he needs to change , the fourth amendment needs that revision to protect the electronic domicile of your own, online identity.

And thank god for the watchdogs. Where would we be without them.


by Trey Rentz on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 01:43:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk show hosts are irrelevant (none / 0)

PS. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.


by Trey Rentz on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 01:52:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ok..I can play this game. Sun Myung Moon. (none / 0)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Myung_M oon


by Tenafly Viper on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:00:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Many challenges to faith-based initiatives (none / 0)

Go to hell...

Please someone hiderate this idiot...


by Lance Bryce on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:16:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 2)

The ACLU does not, I emphasize does not, make a big fuss about the 2nd Amendment.  It's waaaay on the backburner for them.

As for the others?  Tort reform needs to happen (and I say this as someone who will be a lawyer within 18 months).  That's less about a civil trial by jury than it is trying to keep boneheaded "claims" for clogging up the docket.

The others are fair criticisms which are, to varying degrees, cogent and coherent.  What you have to remember is this:

With most provisions of the Bill of Rights (2nd, 9th, and 10th excepted) the ACLU takes a very hardline and principled stand.  That's fine.  They're an advocacy group and one I support.  However, the positions they take are often significantly much more strenuous than those of the voters.

The ACLU is a fantastic organization, but they're never going to succeed in getting all of us onboard with all of their positions, and it's probably best that it never happen.  The fact that they're fighting, and fighting so hard, matters a lot to me, but I'm not sold on everything they say or do.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:26:40 AM EST

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

No, the 2nd and 7th Amendments are not the primary focus of the ACLU. But they do have a position on each, and it is not Barack Obama's.

I disagree with you on tort reform, in the absence of regulation and accountability it is inevitable that lawsuits will proliferate. Kevin Drum covers the liberal perspective pretty well, especially the scam that is medical malpractice reform.


by souvarine on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:33:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

I'm being substantive and I'm not being personal, please keep that in mind.  :)

If you saw the idiocy I've seen you'd probably agree that we need some kind of mechanism to reduce the number or amount of these suits.  If that mechanism is more regulation, or frankly more effective regulation, then I'm all for that.

Products liability law, for example, is totally screwed.  If a manufacturer does everything it is possible to do in order to make a product safe and that product still hurts somebody, well, if that jurisdiction uses strict liability then the company is potentially very liable indeed.

I don't just want to protect consumers.  Obviously I want them protected, and made whole if an injury for which someone else was responsible should occur (though we can go round and round on what "made whole" actually means).

It's not just the consumer, though.  There are enormous risks a manufacturer assumes when they go into business, and not all of them can be dealt with in a reasonable way.  I consider my chosen profession to be a sledgehammer where sometimes a light tap may be enough.

We've taken some good ideas and theories and turned them into open warfare.  It does hurt our ability to compete, frankly.  That doesn't mean I want to scrap our tort system, but it does mean that I think punitive damages could be capped (capped, not removed) under certain circumstances.  I think that the "state of the art" defense (basically you have to show that you did everything humanly possible to make your product safe when you designed it) should be a far more effective defense than it is.

Not every manufacturer who's product hurt somebody is negligent, reckless, or malicious.  Sometimes shit just happens.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:42:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

I appreciate that you are being substantive in response to what is obviously a contentious diary. I'm all for more substance here.

Any attempt to balance competing interests will end up splitting some babies. I think resorting to the courts is the least efficient way to protect consumers, but in this country today it is often the only way to protect consumers. Barack Obama is a consistent advocate for more and smarter regulation, which is the best way to address the idiocy you see, but that regulation itself will reduce the number of civil lawsuits, there is no need to weaken consumer's ability to protect themselves through jury awards.


by souvarine on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 01:07:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

All of this sounds swell, (none / 0)

but you'll do what your partners tell you to do, or you'll be on the street.

And if you practice as a solo - you may have to get a part time job serving coffee.

Consider a District Attorney's situation or I guess insurance law - overcrowded and doesn't pay well.

Good luck in your chosen profession.  


by Xanthe on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:23:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Gonna have to disagree (2.00 / 1)

"Tort reform" is a sham.  A motion to dismiss will get rid of a boneheaded claim.  

Did you cover the "hot coffee" case in Torts?  That is a good example of a claim that "everyone knows" is frivolous because they don't know all the facts.


by JJE on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:08:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gonna have to disagree (none / 0)

Yes, I've read the McDonald's case.  I still think it was crap.  Show me that the cup was poorly designed and I might be persuaded.  The fact that it was really goddamned hot isn't enough for me.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:14:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

There had been (none / 0)

several similar accidents before, but McDonald's determine that its customers preferred super-hot coffee.  

In those circumstances, it makes economic sense for McDonald's to bear the risk of accidents from its super-hot coffee, and pass the costs on to the customers who are willing to pay extra for super-hot coffee.


by JJE on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:18:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There had been (none / 0)

I know the arguments.  I'm not even saying you're wrong, but if I recall correctly the judgment was rather large indeed.

I guess what I'm getting at is I'm not entirely comfortable with high-multiplier punitives.  I think the Supreme Court could do a lot better in providing guidance than "single digit multiplier."


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:20:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Skin grafts to her genitalia. (none / 0)

How much pain and suffering is that worth?


by Mobar on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 12:39:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Skin grafts to her genitalia. (none / 0)

She behaved like an idiot, if I remember the facts of the case correctly.

This wasn't as clear cut as all that.  I'm sorry, but if something is really hot and your hands (and thighs) have working nerve endings then you can tell its hot.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 12:44:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Skin grafts to her genitalia. (none / 0)

I almost never disagree with you Reaper, but I have to on this one.  I think that in cases like this you need to arrange it around the idea that everyone is either an idiot or a child.  And certainly if it had happened before, Mcdonalds should have already perceived this as a possible liability and adjusted.  

Correct me if I'm wrong but I assume companies like Mcdonalds have people working for them for the express purpose of finding such liabilities before they happen.


by Tenafly Viper on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:18:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Skin grafts to her genitalia. (none / 0)

I take your point but I had to spend an hour on the Internet to discover how to reprogram my brand new hot water heater because the law in Australia, which treats everyone as either an idiot or a child proscribed the sale of a hot water heater capable of producing water hotter than 122°F.  That's not very hot by the time it gets through my uninsulated pipes and is intended to prevent unattended children from scalding in the bath, well fair enough but it pissed me off pretty thoroughly.  It now thinks it is installed in New Zealand, God bless 'em.

I have just about had it with the well-intentioned but idiotic micro-management of the mundane for the sake of idiots and children.  Give me a class-action suit against the tobacco companies any day.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:29:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There had been (none / 0)

your memory is faulty on pretty much all counts of the case, as a matter of fact the original judgment was one days profits by McDonald's on coffee sales only. And as has been said above there were over one hundred similar incidents before her case that they settled by paying medical costs. They picked her to be hard-asses to and lost. If they had just done what they had done previously there would have been no suit. And now they and you are still whining about it.


by zerosumgame on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:30:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

That's because they're the American Civil Liberties Union, not the American Bill of Rights Union.


by LakersFan on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:58:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you going to vote for him? eom (none / 0)


by Geekesque on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:30:05 AM EST

Re: Are you going to vote for him? eom (2.00 / 2)

I am not inclined to, and his recent stands do not help. But to be honest I will probably get over myself and vote for him.


by souvarine on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:34:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 4)

Pretty obvious discrepancy with your post there -- you argue that the ACLU and the left favours interpreting the Bill of rights in favour of the the individual, and yet just three paragraphs later you yourself quote the ACLU arguing that the 2nd amendment is supposedly a collective right, not an individual one.

In that case it was Obama who argued in favour of the individual's right and the broad interpretation, and the ACLU that argued against the individual right and in favour of a very narrow definition.

As for the capital punishment case, merely claiming that Obama shifted doesn't make it so. Have you given us a single quote where Obama says child rapists shouldn't get executed? No, you didn't: you gave us the opposite, Obama showing he consistently supports the right to inflict the death penalty in the case of horrific crimes.

Your interpretation of "cruel and unusual punishment" as arguing against the death penalty isn't appealing to me either. If you people want to ban the death penalty, you should pass an explicit law (or amendment) against it: but you're too big cowards to do so, and so you just try to reinterpret the words "cruel and unusual" to argue that it has already been banned.

Nobody's buying it. I'm also against the death penalty, but the Eighth amendment has nothing whatsoever to do with it. You can tell that by the fact that the words "death" or "capital" don't appear in it.


by Aris Katsaris2 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:49:27 AM EST

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

You're right, my rough description does not completely capture the ACLU's interpretation of the Bill of Rights. Their Second Amendment interpretation goes to the deeper meaning of liberty. The use of violence does not expand individual liberty, at best it can only defend it. So while it is necessary for a free people to be armed, it is also necessary to regulate those arms to expand liberty.

The interpretation of cruel and unusual punishment that I quote is Justice Kennedy's, and it is shared by the ACLU and the NAACP in their amicus brief. You may disagree with it, but it is the liberal interpretation of the Eighth Amendment.


by souvarine on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:41:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is a truly weak rationalization (none / 0)

"The use of violence does not expand individual liberty" but the possibility of violence may deter violence.  The ACLU's 2nd Amendment position is not a pro-individual rights position.


by JJE on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:22:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

If you're a Libertarian, then Bob Barr's your man!


by xdem on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:57:47 AM EST

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 5)

This diary just emphasizes the need for everyone to take a constitutional law class at some point in their K-12 education.  Your analysis is, shall we say, inaccurate in a number of respects.  

For example, I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that "tort reform" violates the Seventh Amendment - you've provided no evidence that Obama is attempting to remove the right to a jury.  Moreover, the recent Supreme Court case on the DC gun ordinance made clear that reasonable gun control legislation is constitutionally permissible, so at the moment the debate over whether or not the Second Amendment enshrines a collective right or an individual right has unclear ramifications for other types of gun control legislation.  As for the death penalty - it's constitutionally permissible and Obama has consistently been in favor of some form of that penalty.  If you have evidence that he opposed the death penalty in cases of child rape, you should post it, otherwise the flip-flop charge is pretty dubious.  As for your analysis of faith-based programs, the very NY Times article you cite makes clear that the religious organizations would not be able to discriminate in hiring with regards to the programs that receive funding.  I see no difference between the explanation provided in the NY Times and the ACLU quote you provided.


by rfahey22 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:16:06 AM EST

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

ya see....you approach this as though it was a legitimate diary written out of legitimate concerns, instead of Obama bashing.  The primary is ongoing folks.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:38:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

NO ITS NOT OBAMA-BASHING!!!! OBAMA HATES THE CONTISTUTION AND ALL OUR FREEDOM!!!!! HE PROBABLY WANTS TO GIVE AWAY OUR RIGHTS SO HE CAN GET ELECTED, BUT THERE IS NO WAY IM VOTING FOR HIM LOL LOL LOL!!!!1!!!


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 12:14:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, Justices Souter, Breyer and Ginsberg really could use a lesson in Constitutional law, they have the opinions of a schoolchild!

The ability of juries to award punitive damages in civil cases is rooted in the Seventh Amendment. Tort reform is an attempt to curtail that ability. Obama's positions on tort reform are why he was unable to attract much support from trial lawyers, one liberal mainstay of the Democratic party.

The dissents against Scalia's "indiviual right" were very strong. That will be an active dispute in coming years, and if we can get Obama to appoint liberal justices then it is very likely to be overturned.

I don't know if Obama's death penalty position has flipped, but I saw no evidence prior to Kennedy v. Louisiana that he wanted to expand the category of capital crimes.

The details of Obama's Faith Based Initiative expansion are unclear, but he clearly intends to funnel more money directly to religious institutions, rather than to affiliates.


by souvarine on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:54:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

In The Audacity of Hope he specifically mentions child rape as a possible capital crime.  Calling "flip-flop" until someone proves you wrong is pretty weak, and supports the idea that you're attacking just to attack.


by MeganLocke on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:22:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

I quoted The Audacity of Hope where Obama mentions "the rape and murder of a child." I take his argument there to be that murder aggravated by number or child rape justifies the death penalty. I did not use the term "flip-flop", I think calling his current position a "shift" is justified, unless I have misinterpreted that quote.


by souvarine on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 12:39:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

I'm sorry, I really am, but the "liberal" justices are frankly less persuasive in their interprettations of the Constitution to me.

I agree with them on policy (on what government should actually do), but at times they miracle up some "Constitutional provisions" that just don't leap out from the text itself.

I'm not saying I want more Scalia's (one is enough, thank you), or frankly any Thomas' at all (he's pretty useless), but I can live with O'Connors and yes, even Roberts.

What I wouldn't give for a Thurgood Marshall, though.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:45:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

Please forgive my atrocious use, and misuse, of apostrophes in that post.  I'm still waking up.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:38:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

Dude, Roberts is just Scalia with better hair.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 12:15:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

Have you read many of their opinions?  You really cannot have if you hold that opinion yourself.

Scalia is a mechanical textualist with a sense of humor and mountains of snark.  That's not Roberts at all.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 12:22:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

And although Scalia does it more colorfully and sarcastically, they both inevitably reach the same conclusions. Find me a case where they were on opposite sides of an opinion. (Perhaps there's one out there somewhere, but I can assure you it's not anything of major national import.)


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 12:28:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

You're focusing on the results?  The results?  The judicial philosophy and the reasoning are quite different, as is the temperment.

You can't rate justices based on their results alone.  That's a very layman approach, and I'm not a layman.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 12:31:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

{giggles at the 3L} (none / 0)

Results, also known as "holdings." Compared to dicta and literary style.

Scalia's gift to liberalism has been that his pedantic and sarcastic nature makes him a terrible coalition builder. Roberts is much smoother about pushing a right wing pro-corporate agenda. I'd take Scalia over Roberts any day of the week because Roberts will be more effective pushing essentially the same agenda.


by Mobar on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 12:53:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: {giggles at the 3L} (none / 0)

You think so?  I wonder.  Scalia is viewed as the "model" conservative justice now - Republicans keep promising nominees "like Scalia," and has pushed his originalist interpretation into the mainstream.  Roberts might do more ultimately to advance a conservative agenda, but I don't think that he will be as revered in those circles over the course of history, and may thus have fewer clones appointed to the bench.


by rfahey22 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 01:03:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: {giggles at the 3L} (none / 0)

Scalia is the gadfly, Roberts is the one who gets things done. The republican masses may miss that fact, but the people picking supreme court nominees aren't going to miss it.

I think talk of "clones" on the supreme court is overdone (and possibly racist, considering the two justices most frequently accused of acting in clone fashion just happen to be black) but I'm not sure I see how Roberts isn't a Scalia "clone" when you consider how the two are reaching for the same conclusion most of the time. Does the republican base not think of Roberts as "like Scalia"? I think the republican base probably got a better grip on this than a lot of the dem leadership in D.C.


by Mobar on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:02:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

I'm trying to respond without sound rude, but the fluffy prose analysis gets old once you're out of law school. When I was learning how to read case law, it was quite fascinating to see how, for example, two justices could reach the same conclusion through purportedly different thought processes.

But in the end, that's all well and good on a legal theory basis, but matters little when you're out of the vacuum. I frankly don't care how or why Roberts ends up matching Scalia 95% of the time, and I certainly don't give either of them any special credit for how well they can put lipstick on a pig.  


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:16:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

I would love to hear how punitive damage awards implicate the Seventh Amendment.  If you are saying that the "right" to punitive damages does so, I find that very unpersuasive - the Seventh Amendment has nothing to say about the types of awards to which litigants may be entitled, and there is no constitutional right to the availability of punitive damages, so far as I know.  If you are saying that some regime in which the jury awards compensatory damages but a judge awards punitives would violate the Seventh Amendment, I'd be open to hearing that argument but again I doubt that it's viable.


by rfahey22 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:36:13 AM EST
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Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

The premise of a "liberal" or "conservative" Bill of Rights is itself flawed. Sure, there are various interpretation that are predominantly supported by one party or the other, but as Barack Obama illustrates, there's no real party line across the board.

The ACLU is no more the authoritative guide to the Constitution than is Karl Rove.

Obama, simply by virtue of having been a Constitutional Law prof, as a better academic perspective on the Constitution than most other presidential candidates in history. And from the face of it, he is very clear on the differences between his opinions on the Constitution and his opinions on desirable policy, which is a pretty healthy sense for a President to have.


by Skorri on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:48:49 AM EST

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

I disagree, the Bill of Rights is inherently liberal, as their content and the historical record show. They were explicitly added to protect liberty under the new Constitution. Liberals seek to expand their scope, conservatives seek to restrict it.

The ACLU is a more authoritative guide to the Constitution for me, and for most liberals, than Karl Rove or Barack Obama.


by souvarine on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:14:08 AM EST
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Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

I meant liberal in the party sense, not the philosophical. It is liberal in the sense in enshrines certain individualistic liberties, but it's patently false to claim left wingers want to expand the Constitution and right wingers want to restrict it. Political factions pick and choose which parts are convenient to them.

To make broad generalizations, liberals (the political kind) seek to restrict the scope of the Second and Tenth Amendments, and parts of the First. Conservatives take a cool view to the Ninth, Eighth, and other parts of the First. Obama's view is rather closer to embracing a liberal interpretation of all of them.

Everyone's pretty much cool with the Third, though.


by Skorri on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:30:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Jaust another McTroll diary (none / 0)


by Beren on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 01:26:33 PM EST

Re: Jaust another McTroll diary (2.00 / 1)

Oh for the love of God, this knee-jerk troll response is getting tired. Some of us actually WANT to understand who we're getting in bed with when we elect a President. Some of us want to be informed, rather than surprised when things happen down the road. If everyone just took what was spewed to them from candidates as truth without questioning it, we'd be in a scary place. Oh wait,we've been in that scary place for the past 8 years!

Some people learn, others are just happy to follow.


by Dari on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 01:46:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your "concern" has been noted. (none / 0)


by Beren on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:31:52 PM EST
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bullshit... (2.00 / 1)

the diarist is a dyed in the wool democrat who has never threatened to vote mccain.  personally, i think her central thesis is sound.  barack obama is no liberal, even if he's taken liberal positions.

what's more, denigrating a valued member of this community because she takes issue with barack's stances (his being as reasoned as her's) directly conflicts with his message.  he takes seriously this inside-outside strategy, this movement of empowering the people to influence our government.  part of the dichotomy here is that barack supports the pressuring of his policies when people disagree with him.  that's all souvarine has done.  you may not agree with her, but the work she's put in deserves a substantive, not a knee-jerk, response...


"This is the time for resolve and steady leadership" -- Barack Obama
by bored now on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:26:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: bullshit... (2.00 / 1)

Thanks bored now. I'm actually impressed at how most Obama partisans have engaged in the substance of the diary. It is easier to be a critic, I'd have a hard time defending Hillary Clinton from a similar diary were she the nominee. I've been reading Rules for Radicals, trying to get a handle on how Obama has done it, I hope I can post a diary on his strengths as a politician soon.

One correction, I'm male.


by souvarine on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:24:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

sorry about that! (none / 0)


"This is the time for resolve and steady leadership" -- Barack Obama
by bored now on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:28:38 PM EST
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Re: bullshit... (2.00 / 1)

You're on the right track with Alinsky, that's for sure, in divining Obama's underlying political philosophy.  Shhh...


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:55:57 PM EST
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Re: bullshit... (none / 0)

And I had always had you figured as a woman, in fact a raven-haired, insouciant, intellectual beauty.  Sigh...  Ain't the Internet great?


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:59:01 PM EST
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Re: bullshit... (2.00 / 1)

Careful now, you're describing my wife.


by souvarine on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:02:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

mine, too... (none / 0)


"This is the time for resolve and steady leadership" -- Barack Obama
by bored now on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:08:04 AM EST
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Re: bullshit... (none / 0)

That's what this diary is.


by Beren on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:32:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

feel free to expand on that... (none / 0)


"This is the time for resolve and steady leadership" -- Barack Obama
by bored now on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:47:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 4)

This is some piss-poor constitutional analysis.

How in the hell does CAFA (the "tort reform" Obama supported) threaten anyone's a right to trial by jury? It merely gives federal courts original jurisdiction over certain class action suits that exceed a specified jurisdictional amount. It's just insane to argue that this somehow demonstrates that Obama is uncomfortable with the 7th Amendment.

On whether Obama's faith-based program is violative of the Establishment Clause, I may have to do an entire diary to comprehensively cover the relevant considerations and case law. But, a few things should be noted here. First, Bowen v. Kendrick allowed faith-based groups to compete for funding under the Adolescent Family Life Act. That case provides the legal framework for addressing Establishment Clause challenges to government funding of faith-based programs, and I've seen it cited approvingly by some ACLU lawyers. In O'Connor's concurring opinion, which would probably control under the "narrowest grounds doctrine,"  she noted that while the government may use religious organizations to advance secular goals, she said, it must do so "without thereby permitting religious indoctrination. . . ." She added that it is relatively easy for a religiously affiliated organization to run a publicly funded soup kitchen without engaging in religious indoctrination. However, an organization might cross the line by engaging in religious activities such as providing counseling services.

The question whether a grantee's discriminatory hiring practices violates the constitution is more complicated. First, we should probably be aware of the relevant legislation before considering the constitutional questions. Title VII (as amended in 1972) exempts religious employers from the prohibition against religious discrimination prescribed by Title VII. And, it's pretty clear that this exemption was intended to apply to public contracts as well. If there was any doubt, Clinton removed it in 1996 when he signed "Charitable Choice" into law in 1996. Charitable Choice allows faith-based organizations to use religious criteria when they employ people to work in contracts that are federally-funded through Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) and other funding programs including charitable choice provisions (TANF was the original).

The constitutionality of Charitable Choice contracts isn't crystal clear. A handful of lower courts have address the issue, and the results really depend heavily on a case-by-case factual analysis.

However, I think Obama's program is fine on its face since (1) the grant process does not involve a preference for religious organizations over secular organizations, (2) the program has a secular purpose; (3) neither the program nor the federally-funded employment position directly and substantially advances religion; and (4) the contracted program does not create an excessive entanglement of the federal government with religion. This is a modified version of the test in Lemon v. Kurtzman that was used in Bowen and other similar cases.

Anyway, this stuff is complicated, and little pronouncements like "Obama is not a liberal" displays a pretty small-minded understanding of liberalism and the liberal contours of our constitution. There's nothing anti-liberal about an individual right to arm oneself, subject to reasonable constraints by the state. There's nothing illiberal about wanting federal courts--which have more and better resources--to have original jurisdiction over class-action claims, which are invariably complex and in need of superior federal court resources.

Moreover, good liberals can support the constitutionality of the death penalty in some situations. Liberalism just isn't that strict. Kant and Locke, two fathers of liberalism, both argued in favor of the death penalty. And, if the death penalty is permissible in any situation, I see no reason to say it's not permissible in some cases involved child rape.

 


by DPW on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:16:27 PM EST

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

I am no Constitutional scholar, at best I'm a political hack. You've done a good job picking out my weakest arguments, care to take on the stronger ones?

On your points, while tort reform is not a priority for the ACLU there is an argument that it is anti-liberal, since it weakens individual's ability to challenge powerful corporations. Federal courts are more likely to dismiss class action suits even when the corporation clearly violated state laws. The coalition opposing CAFA (AFL-CIO, NAACP, enviros) was clearly a liberal coalition and had Dick Durbin, one of the most reliably liberal Senators, as it's spokesman. Medical malpractice is even more clearly a case of insurance companies versus injured individuals.

My establishment clause argument is pretty weak, I admitted that Obama's position there is unclear, and you point out that the constitutionality of current law is also unclear. Obama is attempting to address the constitutional issues with Bush's Faith Based Initiative, but he is clearly moving away from a strict separation of Church and State.

On the death penalty the most liberal position, given evolving standards and if world opinion is any guide, is to abolish it. Since within the framework of the Constitution it is permitted the usual liberal position is to reduce its scope. Obama just argued, against the generally liberal justices, that its scope should be expanded.

I chose the ACLU because it is a reliable and consistent indicator of liberal opinion. All of these ideological indicators lie on a continuum, so people can be considered liberal in one context and conservative in another without changing their opinions. But I think Obama is sufficiently distant from the ACLU's positions on enough issues to argue that he is not a liberal in our current political context.


by souvarine on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:39:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

First, regarding CAFA:

Yes, it's true that federal courts, generally speaking, are more likely to dismiss a class action suit, but that typically relates to class certification rather than the substantive merits of the claim. That is to say, before a group of claimants can bring their case as a class, certain procedural criteria must be satisfied. And, federal courts--equipped with really smart law clerks and blessed with less burdensome dockets--tend to be less charitable when it comes to class certification question. State courts, on the other hand, tend to be much more generous with certification due to highly populated dockets and other structural issues that tend to pose problems for state courts. This isn't a liberal v. illiberal matter; it's about adjudicating cases in a way that is far to both sides.

This law admittedly makes life a little harder for plaintiffs' attorneys. However, I don't see that hardship as any kind of injustice. Any lawyer knows that there are certain state-court venues that unfairly favor plaintiffs in civil cases (just like some favor corporate defendents). Federal districts are much larger than state court venues, so this kind of tilted jury pool is less likely. Also, as I noted above, federal courts tend to apply more careful scrutiny to class certification. Naturally, plaintiffs' attorneys and plaintiff-oriented interest groups (which tend to align with the left) don't particularly like some of this. But, I don't see why an impartial observer would have a problem with it.

Class-action suits are incredibly complicated, and, when you're in a very pro-plaintiff venue, class certification effectively forces the defendent to settle in order to avoid extraordinary defense costs and the likelihood (regardless of the merits) of a jury verdict for the plaintiff. This is what the court in Eisen v. Carlisle and Jacqueline, in an oft-cited passage, referred to as the "in terrorem effects of class certification."

It might help to understand that a ruling certifying a class is not a final order of the court and therefore cannot be appealed at once. Rather, a defendant must endure the entire trial and raise the certification in a post-trial appeal. Because a defendant will have potentially spent millions on defense costs by that time, which won't be recoverable, companies rationally conclude that they must settle before they get to that stage.

Furthermore, a defendant faced with this pressure to settle doesn't have the option of picking and choosing which parts of the class to settle with; they must settle with all class members, many of whom might not have discernible injury or apparent damages.

Finally, keep in mind that a denial of class certification is not a denial of access to the courts. A plaintiff can still bring an individual action for damages. So, CAFA doesn't in any way deny anyone access to the judicial process. It just denies them the convenience of being represented by a class representative.

For waht it's worth, I oppose many types of tort reform (primarily, caps on compensatory damages) and support others. There are legitimate problems with the current system that principled liberals should be eager to address.

Secondly, regarding the Establishment Clause:

The strictest kind of separation of church and state can be viewed as illiberal in various ways. Whenever the government offers a benefit of some kind, it can't discriminate in the distribution of that benefit unless it can show some relevant difference among the applicants. So, if a religiously-affiliated groups applies for a grant to do x, but commits to doing x without promoting its religious viewpoint in the process, I don't see a relevant difference between it and a secular organization. The hiring practices of the organization may pose problems, but I don't think it's a yes/no issue.

I actually think that religious accomodation as required by Title VII is a decent guide for how to best handle the situation. An employer has to provide reasonable accommodations to religious employees and applicant so as not to deny employment opportunities being offered by the employer. So, the post office can't refuse to hire someone just because she wears a cross around her neck, or some small like that. However, the Post Office can demand that she not proselytize or otherwise show religiously-based favoritism in the execution of the job duties. I think something similar is acheivable in figuring out the best way to handle faith-based grant applicants/recipients.

Finally, regarding the 8th Amendment and death penalty:

I've long been a big opponent of the Court's current 8th Amendment jurisprudence, which uses the "evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society" as part of its test. Rather, I think the permissibility of punishment should be evaluated based on philosophical principle. I actually think that there are strong arguments for the position that the death penalty is unconstitutional per se, but it has nothing to do with "evolving standards of decency." (the theory of punishment that I defend requires a kind of consent to the punishment--i.e., person freely and voluntarily acts knowing the normative consequences of the act--and the Supreme Court has actually argued in unrelated assisted suicide cases that someone may not relinquish his right to life by consent. If that's true then, justifications for the death penalty are highly problematic.) However, if one takes the position that the death penalty is constitutional in some circumstances, I can't think of any principled basis for excluding child rape as a qualifying crime.


by DPW on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:29:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

Mojo'd for the incredibly substantive rebuttal.  

I agree with every bit of what you wrote with the exception of the first line.  I think Souvarine's analysis was a pretty narrowly focused view of liberalism based on contemporary public conceptions, but your criticism seemed unnecessarily harsh.  I don't think anyone expects Souvarine to be a constitutional expert in order to hold an opinion and write a decent lay diary on the topic.


by Tenafly Viper on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:41:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

I take your point about the harshness. I was a little angry when I began the diary, although I calmed down rather quickly. I've just seen too many of this overly simply constitutional complaints recently--some from lawyers who should know better.

I also tend to be defensive about the term "liberal" or "liberalism." Because I think that general liberal principles about liberty and basic equality should be agreeable to wide swaths of the population, I don't particularly like narrowly defined conceptions of liberalism that only foster the perception of liberalism as some strident minority political perspective.

But, I actually tend to like the diarist, however he manages to make occasional comments/diaries that really piss me off.


by DPW on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:08:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack vs. the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

I completely disagree with your conclusions, Souvarine, but am recommending the diary on the basis that it provoked substantive discussion on the subject, which is always welcome.  You have a good knack for that.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:31:47 PM EST


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